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Post by jhgaulard on Dec 10, 2008 15:05:29 GMT 1
All these exemples are fair Lee. Your reply made me smile because I would have used them all as "counter-examples" to the points of my post. But you will note that I mention 51-56 ON PURPOSE because those were the peak years of the Philharmonia. In terms of depth of sound, have you tried the 1955 "Pictures at an Exhibition"? wow, talking about paintings in IMAX 3D this one is worth listening to...but it is true that from 1957 onwards, some soul is gone from the Philharmonia and the Berliners are going from strength to strength, and it is BECAUSE of this material transfer of energy so to speak that I believe that HvK could have carried the Philharmonia further even if I agree with you that the maestro, already blessed with Vienna and Berlin, probably didn't have the time nor the energy to push the London-based ensemble further. But from this Schumann piano concerto with Lipatti down to this Falstaff (which is the epitome of the perfect orchestral playing in a Verdi opera) with Tito Gobbi the Philharmonia was, dare I say it, the best orchestra in the world. 'nuff said...
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lee
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Post by lee on Dec 10, 2008 17:47:31 GMT 1
Hi JH - yes, agreed, "counter-examples" would have been a better way of presenting them! That said, excellent riposte - I don't think any orchestra could have matched the Philharmonia on that famous late 1950's Falstaff - with honourable exception to perhaps Toscannini's NBC band - not even the BPO in their prime. But, whilst I agree with you about the Philharmonia in the 1950's - and would add Respighi's Pines of Rome to the Mussorgsky Pictures as another example of this orchestra's excellence - I'm not sure if the Philharmonia could ever achieve the heights of the BPO or VPO under Karajan. As a couple of examples, I would cite the Berlin Tristan on EMI and the Decca Butterfly with the VPO - even if the Philharmonia was the only orchestra conducted by Karajan long after 1960, I don't think that they could have conjured up the sounds we hear on these recordings. To me, it is the sound of the strings, a depth of sonority that British - and American - orchestras seem unable to replicate (unless you're the Philadelphia Orchestra !), however great their leadership. It's fun imagining what the Philharmonia could have been like, if Karajan hadn't gone to Berlin though !
By the way, good luck with the "Name the Tune" on Gramophone by the way. Surely someone must know the answer there!!
Best regards, Lee
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Rosy
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Post by Rosy on Dec 10, 2008 19:17:22 GMT 1
However, about 15 years ago I was fortunate to attend a few performances of the Philharmonia conducted by the controversial Giuseppe Sinopoli R.I.P. As I'm sure you know, he went on to the Dresden Staatskapelle after the Philharmonia. Dear All, Let me only a few words about Giuseppe Sinopoli.He has been an excellent Orchestra conductor and composer, unfortunately he has not had time for show all of himself. He has dead while he was conducting Aida. His wife was among the audience and she saw her husband fall to the ground...he was young, had talent and they say that he was good to conducting Wagner's Operas, in fact he had time to perform Der Ring des Nibelungen.********************** Rosy
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Post by stuartg on Dec 11, 2008 0:35:23 GMT 1
Dear Rosy
It was the first and last work that he conducted - he made his debut with Aida in 1972.
Stuart
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Post by stuartg on Dec 11, 2008 1:00:28 GMT 1
Dear Lee & Jacques-Henri,
Your posts are so interesting. It's getting late, but you've really whetted my appetite - I've just gotta play pictures and pines!! Hope I get up in the morning!
I think these recordings are some of the best by any conductor or orchestra (I'm on the 2nd section of pictures and I've been transported to another place!).
Fair comment Lee, the Philharmonia probably couldn't have scaled the heights that the BPO did, but it's fun speculating what might've been!
It's funny though how when I think about great recordings, so many of them are HvK and the Philharmonia, e.g. Pines, pictures, Brahms 1 1952 & Sibelius 5 1951/2.
Stuart
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Post by stuartg on Dec 11, 2008 1:16:25 GMT 1
Lee
I didn't know Ashkenazy had issues with Sinopoli - thanks for that.
This made me think though; those early digital Ashkenazy Philharmonia Sibelius recordings from the Kingsway Hall on Decca are astonishing. The orchestra are really outstanding, again led by great musician, and what recordings (some of the last ones from the Kingsway?)
Stuart
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Post by jhgaulard on Dec 11, 2008 14:41:04 GMT 1
Ah-ah! at least my young age is not a competitive disadvantage anymore! I have a great memory of Sinopoli and the Philharmonia. It was a concert in Carnegie Hall in the autumn of 1992. Young music lover (I was 24), first time business trip in New-York City, me very very impressed and I had just discovered Mahler. We were treated with Mozart's clarinet concerto (the first clarinet of the Philharmonia was playing) and Mahler's 5th -- it was the time I had just discovered "Death in Venice" so you can imagine my excitement. Well, I am not making this up but the evening was downright magic and Signor Giuseppe got 17 (seventeen) I counted them -- curtain calls. People were downright wild and I remember an intense, deep, profoundly shared musical experience. It was one of my first concerts and in a way, it was unfortunate. The bar was, from the beginning, very high...thank you maestro, may you rest in peace...
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lee
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Post by lee on Dec 11, 2008 19:23:47 GMT 1
Hi Stuart
I think Vladimir Ashkenazy is a very under-rated conductor, although I personally found many of those early Decca/Philharmonia recordings a little bland. However the contemporaneous Rachmaninov discs taped with the COA I feel are quite stunning !
Best regards, Lee
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Post by stuartg on Dec 12, 2008 2:24:52 GMT 1
Dear Lee
I do understand what you mean when you say 'bland', but there is an aspect to Sibelius' music that can 'seem' bland anyway; maybe that's what you are picking up on more in those recordings.
I think that I was focusing on the ensemble which is very good and the actual recordings which are absolutely demonstration class.
I first came across Ashkenazy (as a pianist) when I bought my first set of Beethoven piano concertos on Decca (I came late to them).
I also have those Rachmaninov recordings too!
You're right, what performances!
Regards
Stuart
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lee
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Post by lee on Dec 12, 2008 11:17:07 GMT 1
Hi Stuart
Fair comment - but I found his Beethoven symphonies unremarkable and the last three Tchaikovsky symphonies paled in comparison to Mravinsky and Karajan to name but two ! I have to confess to not sampling the Sibelius, but some of his Shostakovich is pretty good and the Rachmaninov First, Isle of the Dead and The Bells quite extraordinary. What's a shame is that he is now a very fine conductor, his profile is considerably lower than it was 25 years ago or so and as a consequence he perhaps doesn't get the credit he perhaps now deserves.
Best regards, Lee
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Post by stuartg on Dec 13, 2008 0:25:27 GMT 1
Hi Lee,
Totally agree about VA's Beethoven, very ordinary (not to mention boring).
He is a good conductor though.
I think you are touching on an interesting point here - this business of conductors getting proper credit; most of the time it's about their media exposure, their recording contracts and the other hype that surrounds them, rather than their talent.
For me, there are three extremely talented conductors who never get the credit they deserve: Wyn Morris (almost unknown, but a veritable musical giant), Barry Wordsworth, James Judd and the late, great, Dr Vernon Handley. These names don't leap into people's minds, but they are as good as any conductor that ever stood in front of an orchestra!
Stuart
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Post by stuartg on Dec 13, 2008 19:43:48 GMT 1
Dear Lee,
By coincidence, this Saturday morning as I drove out of London into Essex I tuned into Radio 3. It was 'Building a Library' presented by David Fanning. The work being reviewed was Rachmaninov 1.
After reviewing many recordings, Ashkenazy's 1982 Concertgebouw recording on Decca was named overall winner!
(I do hope people don't mind a bit of discussion about other 'guest' conductors on this site!!!).
Funny how HvK sort of eschewed Rachmaninov's work.
Stuart
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Post by stuartg on Jan 19, 2009 1:41:33 GMT 1
Keep listening Alexander, you'll get there!
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lee
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Post by lee on Jan 19, 2009 11:14:47 GMT 1
Hi Stuart
Sorry that I missed your posting on the Ashkenazy Rachmaninov First - yes, I listened to this programme too and have to say that I agreed with the majority of what was said. As for Karajan, he was apparently a Rachmaninov fan. There is documentary evidence that EMI discussed the possibility of recording Rachmaninov's Second Symphony with Karajan and the Berliners in the 1960's (as well as Shostakovich's 8th Symphony), but the plans were vetoed by EMI management - a real pity. Richard Osborne also mentions in his biography that one of Karajan's most favourite records was the Rachmaninov Preludes, although I forget who the pianist was (Weissenberg ?). I think too, although I could be wrong, that Rachmaninov was not held in the highest regards by German musical thought until relatively recently (Brendel for example, didn't perform this music at all), which could explain too how these projects weren't heavily pursued by Karajan and DG.
Hope this is of interest, Lee
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Post by stuartg on Feb 5, 2009 23:08:51 GMT 1
Dear lee
Not been on the site for a while and didn't pick up your reply on Rachmaninov. I think you're right, Rachmaninov has not always been held in high esteem in Germany and this may be relevant.
Moving on to another composer neglected by HvK. I was listening to Ralph Vaughan Williams 4 and then half-way into it popped up the road to pick my wife and daughter up from the gym. I tuned into Classic FM in the car and they were playing RVW 4 almost from where I left off - what a coincidence!
Anyway, when I got back home, the CD was now onto Symphony no. 6 and I could not help but wonder what wonders HvK and the BPO (or Philharmonia for that matter) would have weaved in that final desolate movement.
Such a shame that HvK did not survey RVW.
Stuart
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