|
|
Post by Catalin N. R. on Aug 18, 2009 13:13:50 GMT 1
Hi Alexander,
I think you can find the same version of Otello in The Complete EMI Recordings, Vol. 2, CDs 44 & 45. How interesting your idea of having a feature movie of The Ring! Athough I'm not a great fan of Wagner -- I rather prefer the Italian Opera school: Donizetti, Verdi, Leoncavallo, Puccini etc.; excepting the fantastic Beethoven Fidelio and the operas of Mozart --, I think the effect would be astonishing! Maybe someone will hear us, who knows...
With kind regards,
Catalin
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2009 19:32:44 GMT 1
Another note of fascination (for Richard Osborne) is Otello's entrance "Si" in Act IV - he mentioned how Vickers didn't have to explain its significance to K.
|
|
Rosy
Senior Member
Posts: 540
|
Post by Rosy on Aug 19, 2009 9:04:40 GMT 1
Hello All! How much things you wrote in these last days! You start with Wagner and continue with Verdi!! Very interesting. I have read with pleasure your posts, but I don't know when I will end to translate enterely them. However I feel I must say only a few things. You know well that I grew up with the italian melodramma, I love it so much and I know by heart most of the Operas by Verdi, Puccini, Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti etc.. About Otello by Giuseppe Verdi, I can assure you that without a great eroico-drammatico tenor, as for example Mario del Monaco, the whole Opera inexorably falls, despite a very good orchestra conducting. A voice that supports a large vocal extension, "Esultate.." and especially the beautiful mezze voci, or the recitar- cantando "Dio mi potevi scagliar tutti i mali.", III Atto, and "Niun mi tema..", IV Atto. I say this things because at present I can enjoy with satisfaction just the records of the golden years!********************** Rosy |
|
|
|
Post by Catalin N. R. on Aug 19, 2009 9:25:28 GMT 1
Hi Alexander,
You are so much in the right about the cardboard boxes and slipcases! When I first got the EMI boxes, I was very disappointed myself, but now I got used with them. I don't know how much would have cost some of that thin plastic boxes, but they would have had undoubtedly another look...
As for the first recordings of Karajan, I have a box-set with 6 CDs which costs EUR 33.99 (the price of Deutsche Grammophon). I don't think it is the same with the 10 CDs box-set that you were talking about.
With kind regards,
Catalin
|
|
|
|
Post by Catalin N. R. on Aug 19, 2009 10:31:14 GMT 1
Hi Alexander, Is this one the box-set that you have?  Mine is this one:  . Sorry for insisting, but I'm keen on the Maestro's first recordings. Sincerely, Catalin |
|
|
|
Post by Catalin N. R. on Aug 19, 2009 14:01:26 GMT 1
Hi Alexander,
Thank you very much! For not being annoying to all the people here, I will PM you on this subject. I still have some obscure points, and I think you can help me.
All the best,
Catalin
|
|
|
|
Post by Catalin N. R. on Aug 20, 2009 6:47:37 GMT 1
As far as I know Verdi was accused of being under Wagner's influence after he composed Aida. Why? Because he used leitmotivs? Is this not something quite normal for an opera, or any other kind of stage performance with music. To my mind, even comparing Verdi and Wagner, let alone searching for influence of one over another, is positively ridiculous. There can hardly be two more different composers than Verdi and Wagner. The former composed mostly operas and the latter composed mostly music dramas after all. These notions of mine may be quite wrong because they don't rest on any musicological background whatsoever but I think an opera is something very different than the music drama. To put it briefly, in the opera the accent is on the singing, whereas in the music drama it is on the action. That is not to say there is no singing in the music drama or no action in the opera. Of course there is. So it is natural that the opera should consist of more or less separate musical numbers and the music drama should be a continuous flow of music with as few as interruptions as possible. Also, there should be more melody and arias in the opera than recitatives and spoken dialogues, whereas in music drama exactly the opposite will be true. (I hasten to add this is not to say that there is no melody at all in the music drama or that the opera is expected to be devoid of recitatives). Am I, to some extent at least, right in all these assumptions of mine? Hi Alexander, I never saw a better definition of the relationship between Verdi's and Wagner's musical styles. For a while, the two corresponded (in French of course) and changed impressions about their music. But they came to scold with each other about the principles of the Opera: Wagner maintained that the Opera should be always tragical and sad, while Verdi contended that the Opera may also be cheerful and happy, giving as an example Cosi fan tutte of Mozart. Finally they stopped writing to each other. By the way, Verdi used leitmotivs in La Traviata too, as well as in other operas. With kind regards, Catalin |
|
Rosy
Senior Member
Posts: 540
|
Post by Rosy on Aug 20, 2009 10:51:58 GMT 1
Hello Alexander, I tray to explain in simple rather complex issues. About Leitmotiven. Wagner proposes a fragmentary development of the themes that characterize the personages and different situation. In the Verdi' Opera, the themes assigned to the characters are not split! Aida is the natural evolution of the genius of Verdi, therefore it is not influenced by Wagner's Idea. (In our day,few people think to the contrary). In Otello, less and less, you can listen to the two recitar-cantando that I mentioned in my previous post. The Wagnerian Reform didn't contribute to changes in the Art of Verdi. Verdi is an absolute genius as well as Wagner. Fasltaff is indoubtedly a great example, because it is very difficult to make similar turning in late age! Melodramma, drama in music typically Italian ********************** Best Wishes Rosy |
|
Rosy
Senior Member
Posts: 540
|
Post by Rosy on Aug 23, 2009 18:17:05 GMT 1
That clarifies the issue a bit Hi Alexander, I agree. I try to explain this concept better...hope! Please, don't you offend even if I write things that you know very well!! This is only a prelude to a further deepening. Giuseppe Verdi and Richard Wagner were born in the same year, besides they lived in the same age; both knew fame and fortune in Europe and worldwide. Among them there was inevitable rivalry because the two musical geniuses lived in an era characterized by an "automatic" nationalism: it was sufficient to live in one country or in another to absorb and defend different traditions. So, between Verdi and Wagner and wagnerians and verdians (?!) there was conflict and it was very hard. As you know, Verdi doesn't write the texts of his works, he gave suggestions to his librettists and imposed preferences and he wanted the plots that aroused passions in him; he was interested in the dramatic interweavings to create opportunities for Belcanto, he wanted inusual and extreme situations, love betrayed, love leading to sacrifice of own life, deceptions, revenges, murderous ambitions; in short, human passions and all that created a condition of theatricality. Verdi rummages in the range of human passions and he was looking for events in which the characters were gobbled up by passions. Completely different the Wagner's idea about Opera. He doesn't show the passions but he explains his conception of society and for extension of life. Wagner's Opera is especially music, orchestra and the song is not the predominant element. In Wagner there is chant-spoken, that is far from verdiana aria; undoubtedly he is an astonishing inventor, but it's also true that from the standpoint of mere invention of themes, there are several composers with great capacity melodic inventiveness! As Nietzsche wrote, Wagner had difficulties creating melodies and when he creating them, he repeated and ranged themselves. However, it must be said that in the music of Wagner there is a softness, a wealth of sounds, an originality instrumental that makes him unique in the music history.But I want to stress that in Verdi (as well as in Wagner) there is a musical continuity and not a series of isolated arias, as Nietzsche claimed! Indeed Verdi has the skill to bring the melodies one inside the other as a continuous flow which is the unit of the work, just like in Wagner; furthermore in the German composer there is the ability conceptual and philosophical, power and orchestral complexity that in Verdi we can't find; instead in Wagner there is rarity inventive, but often it is burdened by chant-spoken, in the Italian composer we find the urgency of creating one musical invention behind the other. The musical continuity is the element that we can find in both composers, but it is their intimate need, not influenced from one or the other. The supreme quality inventive is a distinguishing Verdi's gift: here is the point in which the Italian composer doesn't fear any comparison, except W.A. Mozart. Wagner's music is awesome, articulated and it has more emotional and unusual explorations. As often says the Maestro Riccardo Muti: " Verdi's music warms the heart, Wagner's one burns like fire and it may do harm!"********************** Best Wishes Rosy |
|
Rosy
Senior Member
Posts: 540
|
Post by Rosy on Aug 26, 2009 9:10:46 GMT 1
Hi Alexander, Your considerations are very pertinent and acute. I had clarified some points. Verdi principally wants to show the humans passions, I didn't say that Wagner didn't do this; the German composer expands all at cosmic level, untill to include all humanity and supernatural. There is something catastrophic that it hangs over the world and its creatures. La donna e` mobile: it's right what you says, besides Verdi uses this aria to dramatize even more with a contraposition what will happen after, namely the tragic death of Gilda; and when this aria is repeated as a leitmotiv, it is precisely for the pourpose stated above. They are tricks to emphasize or announced a dramatic situation. For example, the brindisi in the Traviata is one of the most dramatic points of this Opera, because there is the solitude amidst the joy; the young woman knows that her life is at the end: her desire to live killed by awareness that death is close to her.. "sempre libera degg'io folleggiar di gioia in gioia", she sing with death in his hearth. Riccardo Muti refears to his feelings when he interprets Verdi or Wagner! ********************** Best Wishes Rosy |
|
|
|
Post by Catalin N. R. on Aug 26, 2009 16:00:48 GMT 1
Hi Alexander, Hello Rosy, I think I understand what Rosy does mean when she speaks of the theatricality of Verdi. His music is trying to depict human passions as we usually can find them in theatrical plays. And, as both of you have noticed, the music of Verdi is dominantly melodic. The music of Wagner is not melodic, but proposes to describe mythical epopees, legendary and sometimes supernatural actions. As far as I am concerned, I am a Verdian, not a Wagnerian.  The music of Wagner is a tragical one, while the melodic music of Verdi -- although it succeeds very well in rendering the atmosphere and the emotions -- is not so tragical. Just think at the final aria when Aida and Radames were in the tomb: it is not a tragical music. Yes, the hymn of the eternal love beyond the death... More tragical seems to sound the song of Amneris and of the priests outside the tomb... That said, I'm thinking how different is the music of Verdi of Wagner's one. They have in common a single thing: both are born in 1813. ;D With kind regards, Catalin |
|
|
|
Post by Catalin N. R. on Aug 26, 2009 18:57:01 GMT 1
Also, there should be more melody and arias in the opera than recitatives and spoken dialogues, whereas in music drama exactly the opposite will be true. (I hasten to add this is not to say that there is no melody at all in the music drama or that the opera is expected to be devoid of recitatives). Hi Alexander, You wrote the above text and you were right. Of course, as concerns Wagner, I was speaking in the main, not focusing on one or other particular piece. The recitatives don't seen to me very melodic. His music though is not disharmonious and when I listen to it, I have an impression that it searches an ineffable melody, but it never get to it. Of course, only my humble point of view, after having listened The Ring, Tristan und Isolda and Parsifal. I didn't mean this opinion to sound so harshly, and, because you are also a Wagnerian, I apologize. Hope you won't get angry with me for just an opinion. With kind regards, Catalin |
|
Rosy
Senior Member
Posts: 540
|
Post by Rosy on Aug 27, 2009 10:09:30 GMT 1
Good morning! First of all, I want to say that I can better penetrate Verdi's music- as all of you know!- because I have preferred to approach Wagner's one more later, but I'm hugely fascinated by the German composer's music, therefore my desire is to compare with you and this is certainly clear to you! I must add that I find very useful to read your considerations. Of course, I have studied both composers, but to assimilate their music, study is an important instrument but it is not enough, in fact it's necessary to listen, to listen to the music and with each new listening we understand something more. Certainly, Alexander, also in Wagner there are enchaning melodic pieces, but his design is not the search of beautiful melodies using voices as instruments ( the human voice is however an instrument); his music is very touching but often it contains a total tragedy espressed with pure music. In short, often happens that the voices tell, the absolute music espresses. Verdi, you think of the popular trilogy( Rigoletto, La Traviata, Il Trovatore ) tells stories imbued with feelings, even tragic using belcanto namely human voice. Return to the Traviata, where Verdi never abandons the sense of impending tragedy; from the Prelude we feel that the atmosphere is fully of sadness and sorrow, the sound of violins is piercing. Arturo Toscanini made this feeling very dramatic, in fact the sound of vionlins seemed cold as iron! Verdi reminds us constantly that it is a story that tell about love, yes, but the death is present throughout the Opera. One of the moment more tall and dramatic is the dialogue beetwen Violetta and Giorgio Germont, where Violetta waiving his love :"Pura si` come un angelo, Iddio mi die` una figlia, se Alfredo nega riedere in seno alla famiglia..." Incomparable in this role the baritone Renato Bruson. Yes, I wish I go to Bayreuth!Yes, Puccini belongs to the Verista period, but his music perhaps cannot be defined so restrictive.( I adore it so much). ********************** with very best wishes Rosy |
|
The music of Wagner is a tragical one, while the melodic music of Verdi -- although it succeeds very well in rendering the atmosphere and the emotions -- is not so tragical. Just think at the final aria when Aida and Radames were in the tomb: it is not a tragical music. Yes, the hymn of the eternal love beyond the death... More tragical seems to sound the song of Amneris and of the priests outside the tomb... That said, I'm thinking how different is the music of Verdi of Wagner's one. They have in common a single thing: both are born in 1813. ;D