The First Signs of Greatness

[lee]

I think any admirer of quality music making would agree that Herbert von Karajan was one of it's finest exponents and that if they perhaps do not especially respond to his highly individual blend of podium magic, would at the very least concede that he was an exceptional orchestral trainer. Clearly too, it was a mastery that he worked very hard to achieve rather than a quality that was always there.

Perhaps that occasion in 1938 when Karajan conducted Tristan at the Berlin State Opera, which gave rise to the headline "Das Wunder Karajan", is the moment when the world (or at least the German-speaking world) first got a glimpse of the Karajan magic, but of course there is no audio record of this. So below I have listed the recordings that in my humble opinion show the first signs of greatness.

* Brahms Symphony No 1 - Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam, recorded 1943 (Polydor - now available on DG). It is often remarked that it was strange how Karajan didn't appear to covete the Concertgebouw as much as perhaps the BPO and VPO - after all, Mengelberg's band was arguably the finer ensemble at that time. This recording, in surprisingly decent sound, showcases a very fine performance.

* Bruckner: Symphony No 8 - Berlin Staatskapelle, recorded 1944 (available on Koch Schwann). This is extraordinary, even in comparison with Karajan's later efforts from Berlin and Vienna. If Karajan had not survived the war, this recording, shorn of its first movement, would have been testimony that he was even then a great conductor. How such results were obtained in what must have been appalling conditions, is little short of a miracle. Hearing is believing and the sound beggars belief....

* Reznicek: Donna Diana Overture - Vienna PO, recorded 1947 (EMI). Infamous for being cut (so to fit onto a 78), famous for being a performance that is full of magic from the first bar to last.

* Brahms: Ein Deutsches Requiem - Vienna PO, recorded 1947 (EMI). One of Toscannini's favourite records.

* R Strauss: Metamorphosen - Vienna PO, recorded 1947 (EMI). Staggering intensity, possibly the finest recorded version of all, by anyone.

* Sibelius: Symphony No 5 - Philharmonia Orch, recorded 1951/52 (EMI). Equal to the famous Berlin performance in 1965.

* Humperdink: Hansel und Gretel - Philharmonia Orchestra, recorded 1953 (EMI). Karajan had never conducted this delightful work before taking it into the studio, yet the performance is quite incomparable and has remained the benchmark recording of the work for over half a century.

I'm sure that I've missed many recordings out, but what does everyone think ? I would be most interested to learn your thoughts, but since this thread is about the first signs of greatness, I would suggest limiting it to those recordings made prior to 1954, at which point he was deemed great enough to be approached by the Berlin Philharmonic to succeed Furtwangler.

As ever, I eagerly await your responses. Lee

[Rosy]

Dear Lee,

I wrote something similar in Thread started by me: "Listening to old records....."

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However, it's very interesting what you wrote!

Rosy

[lee]

Hi Rosy

You did indeed - sorry, I missed that one.

That said, do you own any of the recordings I mention and if so, what do think of them ?

Warmest regards, Lee

[Rosy]

Dear Lee,

To answer your interesting and challenging question, I should re-listen to songs that you've proposed, or re-listen to other songs from that period. I'll do this. Now, however, I feel I have to make a preliminary.

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With great pleasure I'll expose my point of view on this subject. First, I like very much the title of this thread. Well, Lee! As I had the opportunity to write on other occasions, I've a strong preference for the recordings that make us appreciate the Maestro at the beginning of his career, because as well as reveal a maestry certainly inherent in him; such interpretations have the characteristics that distinct Karajan throughout his long career. They are precision, clarity, harmony, the legare the musical phrases that, over the time, became his signature.

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You try in his past, the symptoms that reveal his greatness and his uniqueness. In my humble opinion, Herbert von Karajan has followed a natural course of aging, but perhaps we cannot find the signs because they are inside him. His musical narration always been fluid. When you listen to old beautiful recordinds, you find harmony, you will always find his signature!

But, please, let's continue to look for signs of his greatness

Thank you, Lee

Rosy

[Rosy]

My reflections:

I'm very impressed by:

• Bruckner: Symphony No 8
  
• Brahms: Ein Deutsches Requiem
  
• R. Strauss: Metamorphosen
  

For example: to perform the Brahms Requiem, must be mature, aware (he was only 39 years old!). Certainly Karajan had great interior quality, which, along with a natural talent, producing some unforgettable results, otherwise, many things wouldn't have explanation!

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Rosy

[jhgaulard]

Right on track Lee and I admire pretty much every recording that you mention on your tread with two exceptions (I will start with these):

1. I have never understood the admiration that a lot of people have of the Concertgebouw Brahms recording. I find it lacking in pace a bit and I must say I am a much bigger fan of his later efforts (actually pick any: Philharmonia 50s, Wien 60s, Berlin 70s and the recently issued beautiful concert from DG Japan). Part of the problem is the sound and also the fact that I find everybody going "through the motion"...this really feels like a studio recording.

4. Also I realize I am not going to be very popular here but I also have problems with this Deutsches Requiem -- and I apologize for not liking it more...I find it a bit "overpurposed" and maybe a tad cynical..I find the DG DVD, recently published, much more "natural" and...simple. However, from the same year the Beethoven's 9th (missing from your list!) is in my view one of the very best ever performances of this masterpiece...

About the rest:

2. Thanks for mentioning that Bruckner 8th, with its finale in stereo: it is indeed gigantic, spiritual, with a true emergency about it making it stellar!

3. ...and thanks for mentioning that Donna Dianna, 3 minutes of guilty pleasure!!!

5. That Metamorphosen is probably not only the best recording of the piece but, in my humble opinion, a milestone in the history of recorded music, period...

6. Sibelius 5, yep that one is right up there among the very best (and a favourite of the composer as well).

7. the Humperdinck: incredible, with particular mention of the conclusion of Act II in the forest when they both fall asleep, this is pure poetry, where music leaves its own limitations (which are not that many!) to reach another, aetheral reality, some sort of absolute bliss that goes beyond our world, beyond our words...towards another dimension (no I am not on drugs).

What would I have added pre-54: Beethoven piano concerto 4 and Mozart piano concerto 24 with Gieseking, Beethoven's Heroica, Forza del Destino overture of 1939, Sibelius 4, Brahms #2 with Vienna, Meistersinger, Tristan, Walkure Act III from Bayreuth...and these Salome excerpts with the one and only Ljuba Welitsch...but bar these two reservations, I so much agree with your choices, Lee!!

[jhgaulard]

why did you get me started on this: Balakirev 1, Roussel 4, Stravinsky's Jeux de cartes, and the Bartoks all fantastic....oh and Schumann's piano concerto with Lipatti..
No more reply from me on this, promised!

[lee]

Hi Jacques-Henri

I hope you are well and thank you for your interesting reponse.

I concede that the Amsterdam Brahms 1st is perhaps not "great" per se - you are certainly correct to point to the later recordings as being far superior - but I do think it is a very fine achievement for the time. Likewise I do not prefer this Deutsches Requiem to the later ones, in particular the 1970's version on EMI, but find the atmosphere in "Herr, lehre doch mich" uniquely forboding and oppressive. But I do take your point overall.

Likewise, I'm kicking myself for not remembering the Bayreuth Wagner - these indeed are special. My own secret little wish for the Centenary Year was for the whole of this Bayreuth Ring Cycle to be released - what we have already of Rheingold, Siegfried and Walkure Act III is quite wonderful and we know the whole was taped by Walter Legge, so why it has never appeared I'll never know. Maybe the masters are irredeemably damaged. Nevermind, I'll carry on hoping...

And I've forgotten those Salome excerpts - quite extraordinary, both vocally and orchestrally.

I agree too with the Sibelius 4 - it's coupled to the 5th that I mentioned on my CD, as well as a very exciting Finlandia from the same time that's only bettered by the mid-1970's EMI recording with the BPO. Strangely, I don't think the Philharmonia 6th and 7th Symphonies are in the same class....

Nonetheless, I'm pleased that you agree with my other choices especially the Humperdink and Bruckner - is this version of the eighth better than the later efforts ? In some respects, I think it is - how about you Jacques-Henri ?

[jhgaulard]

Hi Lee, I agree about the Bruckner, all the more that this recording was made not that long after Karajan discovered him as a composer, so that makes it special. This plus the very final Bruckner's 8th taped by DG in 1988..I can't remember who said "in my end is my beginning", but that applies so well in Bruckner's case. Overall, I completely agree with the recommendation and its importance in Karajan's career...if only there could be a first movement...

There are loads of Bruckner's 8th conducted by HvK, the piece was a showcase for him and all of them are in any shape or form very, very good...

As for the Ring cycle, if you read the introductory notes of Knappertbsuch's 51 Götterdämmerung or the introductory note to Keilberth's Ring, you will find -- if I remember well -- that these tapes are likely to have been destroyed...oh well...
Hope you are well Lee and speak soon, JH

[Rosy]

Hi Lee and Jacques- Henry!

Introdution: I'm not angry because you (J.H.) have boycotted without valid reasons Ein Deutsches Requiem!

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J'm re-listened to some interpretations of those years: J'm always convinced that Karajan gave splendid evidence of clarity and purity natural, in the sense the he was "unable" to weigh down the sound. The slowness of the times make me think of reading rather meditated (obvious?). Was there a little influence of Toscanini? Maybe. However, you have by now understood that I'm a particular fondness for the interpretations of 40/50 years. All of pieces that you've chosen are examples of high mastery; please, don't we give in too the temptation to compare them with subsequent performances! I'm inclined to comparison, but in this case, only to analyze, not to express opinions, because there's much different in time! (Karajan at 40 years, Karajan at 70/80 years). Then, I'm the first to be irresistibly attracted by comparisons!

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Jacques-Henry,thank you very much for information about Audite.de : beautiful!

Ciao!

Rosy