A phantom Bruckner 8 ?

[lee]

Dear All

I wonder if anyone would have an opinion on the below - it is taken from the website http://www.abruckner.com:

"November 16th - Update on the Orfeo Karajan Release

It seems that Herbert von Karajan is a jinxed conductor these days. If the problems with EMI's releases weren't enough (see Discographic Horrors), now Orfeo has released a CD set which raises another issue. Orfeo has released a 4 CD set featuring Karajan's orchestral concerts from the 1957 Salzburg Festival. However, the recording of the Bruckner Symphony No. 8 (taken from a 28/7/57 concert) contained in the set is the EXACT same performance which has been available in an Andante.com VPO set (edited by ORF's Gottfried Kraus). In the Andante set the concert is listed as being recorded on 17/4/57 in the Vienna Musikverein. I contacted ORF and the producer Gottfried Krauss contacted me and he recalls that Andante had great difficulties with the tape of the 17.04.57 performance and may have needed to substitute sections of the Salzburg performance to produce the CD set. It could well be that they ended up substituting the whole performance because timings are exactly the same and the performance appears (after several spot checks) to be the same. Herr Krauss assures me that the Orfeo set contains the 28.07.57 Salzburg Performance."

For anyone who has compared the two, your opinions are most welcome.

With best regards, Lee

[~Linda~]

Hello Lee

Following on from your posting I thought that you may be interested in the fact that a couple of days ago I received a letter from Karajan's discographer John Hunt enclosing a very interesting article entitled "Herbert von Karajan at the 1957 Salzburg Festival".

I have now typed it out and added it to John's other contributions in the Visitor Section of the website:

www.karajan.co.uk/visitor.html#visit8


Best wishes

Linda

[lee]

Moving on from the football....

Thank you Linda for pointing out the always interesting contributions of John Hunt. I'm sure some Forum members would be interested in the fact that I have managed to find the time to compare both these performances. I can confirm that, as in the abruckner.com website article, both the Andante and Orfeo performances are the same, in spite of different dates. This is borne out by the following identical extra-musical happenings that are present in both recordings:

* 1st Movement - 20 seconds - during the clarinet solo, there is an audience cough.
* 1st Movement - 5 mins 40 seconds & 6 mins 11 seconds - during his duet with the oboe, the first horn cracks on not just one but two notes.
* 2nd Movement - 5 mins 57 seconds - a further horn crack
* 3rd Movement - 8 mins 5 seconds - during the dialogue between flute and clarinets, there are two coughs.
* 3rd Movement - 13 mins 35 seconds - another horn crack
* 4th Movement - 19 mins 15 seconds - yet a further horn crack.

Whilst it is a fair comment to note that HvK's performances were consistent in a way, for example, Furtwangler's were not, I think these extra-musical confirms that these are indeed the same performances, in spite of the different dates stated by the relevant recording companies.

As for which recording to have, there is very little to choose between the sound quality between Andante and Orfeo (maybe the Andante is a smoother transfer, the Orfeo slightly more analytical, but results would probably vary between different machines), however, the Orfeo box contains other Karajan performances whereas the Andante contains a very powerful Mahler 9 with Mitropoulos (in appalling sound mind) and an OK Bohm Heldenleben. I've chosen to keep just the Orfeo !

Hope this is of interest and of course, I would be interested to learn of anyone else's opinions on this performance(s).

With best regards, Lee

[stuartg]

Dear Lee

Thanks for this.

I've got an Andante box set that contains the other items that you mention, plus a Tod und Verklarung by Bohm, but no other HvK items.

There is also a booklet containing an essay by Barrymore Laurence Scherer and various photographs, including one of HvK and the VPO.

Is this the same box set that you are referring to?

Stuart

Update: Having re-read your post, I understand that it's the Orfeo that has other HvK recordings. But, all the same, my Andante box has Bohm's Tod- is this the same box set that you refer to?

[lee]

Hi Stuart

Yes - you are correct, the Andante set does also contain a rather fine Tod with Karl Bohm (which , incidently, I have on a DG release from about 15 years ago) and the set I refer to is indeed the one you appear to have. The question I asked myself was, could I genuinely afford the shelf space for this set when it clearly duplicated the Bruckner performance in the Orfeo box and, in my case, the answer was no. However, there is no denying as ever, the quite excellent presentation of the Andante release - a pity other recording companies can't follow their example.

Hope this helps, Lee

[stuartg]

Good morning Lee

Thanks again!

I only have the Andante release, so just the usual shelf-space problems for me - although I also have another Tod by Bohm on DG, but it's not from '63 and it's with the Staatskapelle Dresden.

This makes me think, HvK and Bohm had so much common territory in their life (and that's not a euphemism for the National Socialist angle), yet so little is remarked upon. Bohm is also a giant among conductors.

Regards

Stuart

[lee]

Hi Stuart

Your comments on Karl Bohm are most interesting and pertinent. During his lifetime, Karl Bohm was seen as a bit of a rival to HvK in a more relevant way than either Solti and Bernstein in spite of recording company politics, since as you say, they had so much common territory. In particular, I would say that Bohm was probably the main Austro-German conductor not to be completely overshadowed by Karajan during his lifetime. However, as one Deutsche Grammophon executive memorably (and cruelly) remarked: Karl Bohm died the day after his death - and this is why I think Karajan and Bohm are rarely compared to each other these days, at least on a musical level. That said, I would be interested in what other people think.

As for Maestro Bohm, he was indeed a very fine conductor, although I feel he fall just a touch short of the "giant" tag you so generously give him Stuart. Exciting and excitable, I feel that he lacks the last ounce of individualism that marks out his main rivals like Karajan and Bernstein (disregarding Klemperer and Reiner et al from earlier times). His Tristan for example, much lauded, is exciting and has perhaps the finest cast and most truthfully balanced recording (in spite of it being live). Yet play it alingside Karajan's, Furtwangler's, even Bernstein's and Goodall's.... However, on my shelves, is an exceptional Beethoven Choral (DG 1970 - not the one with Domingo) under his baton, a wonderfuly conducted Figaro (and a wonderful DVD of this opera), as well as an exceptional Elektra, which again is the soundtrack for a film.

A giant amongst conductors ? In my opinion, by today's standards yes, but in an historical perspective ? Not so sure....

However, I would be most interested to learn other people's opinions.

With best regards, Lee

[stuartg]

Dear Lee

Your assessment of Bohm is more objective than mine and on that level I couldn't disagree with you.

However, for me, Bohm was a giant of a musician, even if the 'giant' tag is a tad enthusiastic!

The comparison with Furtwangler is not fair on anyone never mind Bohm - nothing gets close to F's Tristan!!

Bernstein is a great composer but, in my opinion, is a poor conductor.

I freely admit that I simply don't get Goodall's art. Surely if Wagner's operas were meant to go on for that long, he'd have written more notes!

If anyone wants to check out Bohm's recordings, I'd recommended his Bruckner 3&4, any Strauss, Haydn's Seasons and his Tristan.

Regards

Stuart

[lee]

Hi Stuart

Trust all is well.

Of course, all this is subjective - I can often enthuse about one conductor's work only for it to be dismissed outright by someone else, but then I guess that's what makes classical music so interesting, so multi-facteted. Whatever one can say about the musicianship of Bohm, he was truly versatile and without gimmicks and it's nice to see someone enthuse about him these days. I like your list of recommended recordings too - if you like Bohm's way with Bruckner, there is a live version of the Eighth with the Tonhalle Orchestra taped near the end of his life which has prompted some rave reviews - it should be quite easy to find on Amazon.

As for Goodall, I'm nearly in agreement with you, although in my opinion, his Tristan is the finest of all his efforts. Interesting to note that he was a Karajan fan though !

Best regards, Lee

[stuartg]

Dear Lee

Thank you, all is well.

I read your post as I chewed on my omelette this morning. I haven't come across that Tonhalle recording, I will investigate Amazon.

I like the Tonhalle, I was impressed when I saw them live once.

Another CD winging its way towards my collection!!?

I always loved Tristan und Isolde but, it wasn't until I heard a recording of Furtwangler's Philharmonia & Covent Garden Opera House Chorus performance that I had a truly spiritual experience.

As good as Bohm and Goodall's performances are, for me, nothing compares with the Furtwangler.

As I write, I'm listening to the Bohm Tristan and as you say Lee, Bohm is indeed exciting (I'm ignoring the excitable bit!).

Best wishes Stuart

[lee]

Hi Stuart

Here's the link to the Bohm recording on Amazon:

www.amazon.co.uk/Bruckner-Symphonie-No-8/dp/B0002S940M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1235299851&sr=1-1

Be warned - it's different from the lofy conception of Karajan and Giulini, more fiery and arguably more Furtwanglerian.... The rave review I saw was on the website called Classics Today.

I have to confess to having mixed feelings about Furtwangler's Tristan though - I'm too deeply under the spell of Karajan's 1971 EMI recording, but in many respects Furtwangler's is the next best. That said, I have nothing but tremendous admiration for Furtwangler in Wagner - indeed one of desert island recordings is of excerpts from Gotterdammerung from the ROHCG during the Coronation Season in 1937; Furtwangler is in the pit with Boult's (very fine) London PO and Melchior and Flagstad are on stage. What's even more remarkable is that there's a brief excerpt from the following year, with Frida Leider as Brunnhilde, that are even better ! Both are electrifying. There are also excerpts from a live 1947 Tristan which I haven't heard under Furtwangler that are supposed to be more fiery than the studio account. Have you heard these ? I do tend to like a bit of fire in my Wagner which is possibly why I end up admiring Knappertsbusch and Goodall rather than enjoying them. However, I feel that Bohm is too fiery, missing the sensuousness of Tristan and the brooding mystery of The Ring, but this is just a personal reaction. There are plenty of others better qualified than I who disagree.

With best regards, Lee