From Russia with Love...

[lee]

Hi John

I hope all is well and that you enjoyed the football this afternoon !

Regarding the Moscow Shostakovich 10, I think Mr Hunt is referring to the notes in the CD which claim that the composer attended the Leningrad concert, rather than the one in Moscow. However, there is considerable anecdotal evidence to suggest that this is incorrect; in addition to the comments by Michel Schwalbe that you document above, his co-principal Thomas Brandis (part of three remarkable Konzertmeisters that made up Karajan's BPO, the other being Leon Spierer) has said:"When we played Shostakovich's Tenth Symphony in Moscow it reduced the composer to tears. He told Karajan that he had never heard his music played with such insight in all his life. That was a great and historical moment" (source: Gramophone July 1999). Richard Osborne in "A Life in Music" also clearly refers to the composer being present at the Moscow concerts. I can only assume that the CD annotator is wrong and Mr Hunt is attributing too much respect to him.

As for the performances, and in particular this Shostakovich 10, it is indeed very special, having an "edge" and frisson that few other performances have come close to emulating - do I detect a smattering of applause after the second movement Allegro too, quickly faded out ? Whatever can be said of the Soviet Union, one cannot deny that those Moscow audiences in the late 1960's were as culturally aware as any, if not more so - if they felt that it was appropriate to clap mid performance... As for the sound, I found that - particularly in the symphony - the focus shifted somewhat; perfect during the loud sections, but slightly vague in the quieter one.

I managed to acquire Klaus Lang's "Karajan Dossier" when it was first published in the UK in either 1993 or 1994. I remember it being a very balanced critique, with a few interesting sections, although feel it has now been superseded by Richard Osborne's magisterial biography. I particularly liked the front cover, one of my favourite Karajan photographs.

With best wishes, Lee

[john]

Lee

I am well but I would be much better if Tottenham had won the match on Sunday.

My impression is the same as yours regarding the composer and the Moscow concert, however I have not spoken to John Hunt since so I cannot provide any update but will of course keep you posted if any new information comes to light.
I have not read the sleeve notes as the originals are John's and due to the high expense of the 4 discs I am not ashamed to say that I have copies.

There is indeed some clapping at the end of one of the movements in the 10th, this may have come about through adience excitment as the passage is very powerful, I have a recording of a Karajan Salzburg Tschaikowsky 6th from 1979 where the same thing happened at the end of the very exciting 3rd movement.

The above examples are unusual but understandable and in most cases acceptable, however I also have a 1985 Carmen from Salzburg where some applause breaks out before the final bars, this is clearly ignorance on behalf of some of the audience.
Infact applause is something that I can live without in certain works, we all know that Wagner insisted on no applause at the end of Parsifal, I don't know how much this has been observed over the years.
I have no objection to applauding at a good concert, however I would prefer no applause whatsoever at the end of some of the more sublime works such as Bruckner 9th, Verdi Requiem, Zarathustra, Otello, Mahler's 9th & Das Lied Von Der Erde, Tschaikowsky 6th, Aida and possibly even Tristan.
This is just a personal thing and a view which may not be shared by many.
Equally, the over enthusiastic applause adopted by many at the end of concerts before the conductor has relaxed and signalled the end is not to my liking either, I have a recording of a Bruckner 8th from Salzburg with HVK where as expected at the end of the final crashing notes some sections of the audience start to applaud immeadiately, only to be stopped by others because Karajan had not relaxed, in effect he is savouring the moment, probably almost in a kind of trance, the audience stop and then after a few seconds start the applause again. quite unusual.

John

[lee]

Hi John

Whilst of course I cannot agree at all with your comments on the football (!), I'm almost at one with you with regards to the question of when to applause. Whilst I would naturally wish to show my appreciation at some point at the end of the works you listed, at no time would I ever wish to clap in between movements. Unfortunately this has become somewhat habitual at the London Proms, so John, like Gunther and Siegried we'll have to swear as blood brothers to never go to the Proms together - we would probably start a fight !! However, there are always the rare exceptions to the norm, as you note above; I also know of the audience leaping to its feet and cheering during the final bars of Siegfried (ENO/Goodall - a different night to the commercially released performance) and even more bizarrely, mid-way through the Andante Moderato (second movement) of the Brahms Fourth Symphony (LPO/Tennstedt). It is a personal thing as you say, but could anyone fail to not clap on that memorable night in Moscow, 1969 ?

With best regards, Lee

[stuartg]

Dear John

Your posting on the issue of applause is very interesting. I love to have the full applause on live recordings and I get frustrated when it's omitted, or even worse, edited.

Somehow it doesn't feel right when you know the audience is about to go wild and all we get is silence. Different strokes for different folks!

I agree with you about those plonkers who just have to be the first bugger in the audience to get clapping! Why do they do it? Maybe it's because no-one takes any notice of them at work or at home and they can't deal with never being chosen to be a school prefect or captain the football team.

I find the applause protocol confusing. Years ago we always used to clap at the end of the first movement of Walton 1. I nearly embarrassed myself at a performance of this work 2/3 years ago- it seems it was no longer the done thing, but no-one told me!

I remember clapping furiously at the end of the first movement of Sibelius's violin concerto about 20 years ago. I listened to a proms broadcast of this work years later and there was silence at the end of the first movement. Attitudes change I suppose.

At a concert performance of Parsifal conducted by Rattle, we all clapped furiously at the end, despite Wagner's instructions!

A small group of us led the applause at the end of Holst's 'Mars' at last year's prom.

I firmly believe that we classical concert goers need to chill a bit and get clapping more. For example, I always want to clap at the end of the first movement of Bruckner 8 and go berserk at the very end of the work (sorry John!).

I couldn't contemplate not clapping at the end of Zarathustra, Mahler 9, Tchaikovsky 6, Tristan et al (I guess John will never come to a prom with me!!).

A friend of mine is a very accomplished jazz guitarist. Thirty years or so ago, he had a few too many beers in the Bell pub in Walthamstow one night and tottered down the road and stumbled upon a string quartet performance going on in the nearby William Morris gallery. Sitting down (without paying) he listened to the work, Bartok str Q 6, being given in front of him. Following a pretty difficult passage executed with considerable skill by the leader, my friend wanted to immediately show his appreciation for a fellow musician and began clapping as they do at jazz gigs. It did not go down well, especially with the cellist who was trying to take and develop the theme.

He was asked to leave at the end of the movement and never regained enough courage to attend any further classical concerts!

Thank you for a very interesting topic. Hope I didn't go on too long and I wonder if other people have a view on this.

Finally John, improve your wellbeing, do what I do - support Manchester United!!

Stuart

[john]

Stuart

I could'nt agree more regarding the applause on the live recordings, and as you know these are very close to my heart.
Sadly, the applause on the two Karajan testament discs is cut short and I was at both concerts cheering along with the rest of the audience.
Similarly I went wild at the end of the 1979 bruckner 8th and the 1985 Bruckner 5th, who would'nt, however I just don't feel like clapping that much at the end of the more sublime works I mentioned in my previous post, this is purely a personal thing a kind of inner feeling.

It's interesting to note that some of the recent live Karajan recordings that have been released from the tours of Japan not only include the opening applause but continue, sometimes for many minutes at the end of each concert as Karajan returns to the podium, mainly at the expense of having the entire concert spread over two discs instead of one.

As for my wellbeing, it could be worse I could support Watford (sorry Lee)

By the way I love your story about the the Bell Pub etc. This is one of my old haunts having lived in the area for the last 38 years.


John

[lee]

John

I live in Watford, but haven't done all my life, which is the reason why I support the best team in North London rather than Watford FC, as you well know !

Whilst I appreciate how hard it must be for a long suffering, soon to be in the Championship, Spurs supporter to type the A word (!), I'm just glad that your appreciation of serious music is several levels higher than your appreciation of quality football !!

I was also wondering if the applause on the Japanese CDs were separately indexed ? At least one could treat themselves to a round of applause whenever it was required - perhaps this is the reason it's on the discs !

With warmest regards, Lee

[stuartg]

Dear Lee

I have read all your posts and I have a deep respect for your well argued views, detailed knowledge, passion and intellect. You have a far deeper grasp of this field than I could ever have.

BUT, that last post- am I right in thinking that you are a gooner?!!

Please tell me it's not true.

Stuart
P.S. Regarding John's Watford accusation, won't he be getting a letter from your solicitor?!

[lee]

Hi Stuart

Whilst I beg to differ with your very generous assessment of my musical knowledge, I would have thought that it was only logical that appreciation of the beautiful talent of HvK would go hand in hand with an appreciation of beautiful football. Hence indeed I am a Gooner!

As for John's slip up, we have to make allowances for Spurs supporters, who have a lot more on their plate than we do. After all, with 8 different managers already this decade, we can't expect them to remember who everyone else supports too !

Here's waiting for a suitable riposte from John,

Lee

[stuartg]

Dear Lee

All I can say is that if HvK had chosen an English team, he'd have undoubtedly chosen Manchester United!

'Nuff said!

Stuart

P.S. Re: Spurs fans, don't mock the afflicted!
P.P.S. This thread has wandered off topic and is getting a bit 'blokey'. Will the moderator tell us off?!!

[john]

Lee

I think Stuart is right it's probably time to put this one to bed.
However, i have to admit that Man Utd are probably the Karajan of football, Powerful, hugely successful, etc etc. whereas Arsenal are Rattle, the great pretenders, lots of early promise but never really deliver, and as for Spurs? too many average conductors.

I must apologise for the Watford gag, I did forget that you were an Arsenal fan but I think it was down to that lovely bottle of wine you sent me.

All the best

John

[~Linda~]

Hello “blokes” ;D

Well what can I say when I have Darlington as the local team !!!!

All the best

Linda

[stuartg]

Dear Linda

You have been granted 'honorary blokemanship' for the purposes of this sub-thread.

Please feel free to blog with the blokes!

Anyone that can publicly own up to being a Darlington fan is more of a man than I could ever be!

Respect!

Stuart

[Rosy]

Hello All!

Very nice your talk about English Football Teams, but I didn't understand much, too many idiomatic phrases or words! I am Inter, the Milan team, supporter..

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About the Moscow CDs, Volume No 3, I've waited too long the Europe shops and so I decided to buy it from our Japanese friends, HMV
Rosy