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Post by beethoven2 on Jan 2, 2009 2:29:16 GMT 1
During Karajan's term with the Berlin Philharmonic, he usually performed in the Philharmonie, the main concert hall of the Berlin Philharmonic. I've watched videos of his concerts (mostly on youtube), and the orchestra is usually set up in a certain layout. But then I came across a few videos where the orchestra is set up differently. One layout is where he is in the middle of the orchestra, and one where there are three risers in front of him. In both of these layouts, there is no audience, but the orchestra members are all dressed in suits for concerts. Where are these videos taking place? In another concert hall, a studio, or is the was the video edited so that you can't see the audience and the hall? Here are the links: In these two, he is in the middle of the orchestra. Where is it? www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvJqiURF0hc www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZTNoYugUWQ&feature=relatedIn these, the orchestra is on risers. Where is this? www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFltqVS8d9I&feature=relatedwww.youtube.com/watch?v=s8eigkwmMEo&feature=relatedAnd out of all these layouts, which was Karajan's favorite? Thanks
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Rosy
Senior Member
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Post by Rosy on Jan 2, 2009 14:43:33 GMT 1
Hello Beethoven2 and Happy New Year! The four videos are Beethoven's Cicle 1967/1972They were recordered in Berlin ( Universal ) and yes, there isn't audience. Symphony No 1 recorded in December 1971, directed by Arne Arnbom; Symphony No 2 recordered in November 1971, directed by Joachim Scholtz ( both under Herbert von Karajan supervision) Symphony No 3 "Eroica" and Symphony No, 7 both recordered in October 1971, and directed by Hugo Niebeling, but Karajan edit the film shooting bringing the cameras on him. In this way, we can see very well his gesture! However, you can find all the information about these Symphonies in this Forum on Video Recording,Thread Beethoven DVDs******************************* Ciao Rosy
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Post by Catalin N. R. on Jan 2, 2009 14:51:57 GMT 1
I've watched me too a lot of DVDs with Karajan's concerts. Most of the video recordings are showing the Maestro in the middle of his orchestra. I think this was the preferred layout of Karajan.
The second layout, with the three risers in front of him, was used only in a few recordings, and I think mainly for artistical purposes. (I don't remember right now where exactly took place these recordings.)
Regards, Catalin
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Post by beethoven2 on Jan 2, 2009 21:55:05 GMT 1
Yeah, I've noticed that Karajan usually conductor in the layout where he is in the middle of the orchestra. What was the layout? Are there diagrams of this layout? Also, what was the size of the orchestra? How many 1st Violins, 2nd Violins, Cellos, Flute, Oboe, Clarinet, etc.?
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Post by Catalin N. R. on Jan 2, 2009 22:37:53 GMT 1
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Post by beethoven2 on Jan 3, 2009 1:41:41 GMT 1
Hi, I actually counted the orchestra members in the youtube video of the Eroica. Here's what I got:
Violin I: 14 Violin II: 13 Viola: 9 Cello: 11 Bass:6 Flute: 5 Oboe: 3 Clarinet: 4 Bassoon: 4 Horn: 4 Trumpet: 4 Timpani:1 Total: 78
Compare it with the present day Berliner Philharmoniker:
Violin I: 23 Violin II: 18 Viola: 13 Cello: 13 Bass: 10 Flute: 4 Oboe: 4 Clarinet: 3 Bassoon: 4 Horn: 7 Trumpet: 5 Timpani: 2
I am not going to count total, because there are more musicians in other instrument categories. But I am just comparing the musicians who play the instruments in the Beethoven Symphony.
So, this was what I found for the riser layout. What about the regular one? Is it the same number of musicians? Do you have a webpage with a diagram of the layout? Just curious.
Thanks.
This was in the riser layout.
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Post by Catalin N. R. on Jan 3, 2009 3:31:05 GMT 1
So the orchestra is growing up as number of instruments (if what you tell is right, it is almost double than the Berliner Philharmoniker conducted by Karajan). It's a pity that their performances are growing down: just compare the concerts of Karajan or even Claudio Abbado, with this simulacrum of music performed by Simon Rattle... Of course, this is only a personal opinion, otherwise said, de gustibus non est disputandum. As for the number of instrumentalists, if the DG's DVDs with the Symphonies of Beethoven conducted by Karajan are from the same period (that is to say from the years 70s), then the number of musicians should not differ (very much) in the riser layout from the regular one. No, I am so sorry, I haven't such a webpage with the instruments' diagram. However, I think Berliner Philharmoniker should keep not only the diagram, but also the names of the instrumentalists. Try to contact the BPO from here www.berliner-philharmoniker.de/en/meta-navigation/contact/, and if you get an answer, please let us know. Really, I am very interested in the names of the instrumentalists while the Orchestra was conducted by Herbert von Karajan. Best wishes, Catalin
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Rosy
Senior Member
Posts: 540
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Post by Rosy on Jan 3, 2009 17:55:01 GMT 1
Hello Beethoven2 and Happy New Year! The four videos are Beethoven's Cicle 1967/1972They were recordered in Berlin ( Universal ) and yes, there isn't audience. Symphony No 1 recorded in December 1971, directed by Arne Arnbom; Symphony No 2 recordered in November 1971, directed by Joachim Scholtz ( both under Herbert von Karajan supervision) Symphony No 3 "Eroica" and Symphony No, 7 both recordered in October 1971, and directed by Hugo Niebeling, but Karajan edit the film shooting bringing the cameras on him. In this way, we can see very well his gesture! However, you can find all the information about these Symphonies in this Forum on Video Recording,Thread Beethoven DVDs******************************* Hugo Niebeling decided that particular position of the Orchestra to stress the arpeggio of string instruments featuring the two wonderful Symphonies! Rosy
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Rosy
Senior Member
Posts: 540
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Post by Rosy on Jan 3, 2009 18:18:29 GMT 1
Dear Catalin and Beethoven2, In the books you can find information about Berliner Philharmoniker under Maestro Herbert von Karajan, but I advice you to read David's articles in the board Karajan's musicians They are very interesting! There are useful links. ************************ Ciao Rosy
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Post by Catalin N. R. on Jan 4, 2009 2:51:02 GMT 1
Thank you, Rosy!
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Post by michael on May 23, 2009 3:52:41 GMT 1
So the orchestra is growing up as number of instruments (if what you tell is right, it is almost double than the Berliner Philharmoniker conducted by Karajan). The number of members of the BP has not grown significantly since Karajan's days. They have had about the same number of players as today for many decades. That you don't see them all in the films from the 60s has nothing to say. Karajan never played the Beethoven symphonies with *all* members of the orchestra. How many players were/are used depended/depends on the pieces they play. Karajan used to double the winds so in the typical Beethoven symphony, he used 4 of each wind instrument, 6 horns in the Eroica and 8 in the 9th symphony. The number of string players was usually 16-14-12-10-8. How many you actually see in some of the films from the 60s has not much to say. These films were made in the studio, and as you can see from the unusual orchestra layouts, somewhat experimental in nature. They do not reflect exactly what the orchestra was set up like and how many players exactly were used in concerts. There is also a film of the 5th where you see 8 horns, instead of the usual 4. I don't t think they ever actually played this symphony with 8 horns. I think they just put the 8 horns there because they felt it looked more "impressive". There are two parts in the score, but like I said, Karajan usually doubled the winds, so they typically had 4 for this symphony. They wouldn't all play all the time though. Typically, in quieter sections, only the 2 wind instrument written in the score would play, and the extras would join in in louder sections, to balance out the string sections which are much bigger than they used to be in Beethoven's day. The total number of permanent players of the BP with 5 of each wind instrument, 8 horns, and several more string players per section than are typically used in each concert is the standard size of all bigger German orchestras. So the players don't have to play in each single concert but have some time off regularly. Some orchestras have even more players, like some of the big fulltime opera orchestras.
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Post by Catalin N. R. on May 24, 2009 12:58:12 GMT 1
Hi Michael, Very interesting your post. As you can see, I had the sentiment that the number of players couldn't have changed very much since then. May I ask you, are you an expert? Best wishes, Catalin
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Post by michael on May 30, 2009 6:48:20 GMT 1
I studied music once and played professionally for a while, so I know the "business" very well. If I am an "expert" or not I don't know ad I would rather leave that open. There are too many self-appointed "experts" on the internet already.
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Post by Catalin N. R. on May 30, 2009 9:49:57 GMT 1
You are right, Michael, there are too many so-called "experts". Maybe I should have asked you if you are a professional. Thanks for your answer.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 6:10:40 GMT 1
The BPO website now has concert records back to 1882
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