1950 St Matthew Passion

[jhgaulard]

Dear All,
I have just listened to the St Matthew Passion of 1950 issued by Andante. I am a die-hard admirer of the maestro but I must confess that between a yelling Ludwig, a pedantic Schöffler and a very slooooow performance, I quickly came back to the 1970s recording with relish....until I started to have doubts: what if the pitch of that particular re-issue was wrong? did anybody else on the forum noticed anything wrong with the Andante re-issue of Mattheus Passion?
Thanks for your help!

[Rosy]

Dear Jacques-Henri,

You are very likeable

I haven't recording of "St.Matthew Passion",1950 but I've heard and listen to the old record, because the Maestro suceeded in obtainig executions particulary clear, limpid, strict! It's true: in certain passages he was "slooooooooooow!!!!
The result was splendid. We hear what others think, if indeed there's an error.

Best Wishes

Rosy

[jhgaulard]

Rosy,
you are going to make me blush...
I think the problem is more obvious in CD 1 although there are some tuning problems, Edelmann is not very accurate, nor is Schöffler...this recording is really redeemed by its two angels, Irmgard Seefried and Kathleen Ferrier, the latter absolutely phenomenal...not enough for me to come back to these 210 minutes of music, but I'll take all the Ferrier arias out and put them on a separate CD...
In 1972/1973 with Peter Schreier, the maestro is 7 minutes faster and his soloists work better as a team...I think the studio works better for a work of this scope...but then, it's only my opinion!
Thanks for your reply Rosy and arrivederci

[Rosy]

Hi Jacques-Henri!

I wanted joke!
Don't you blush!

Now, you've given several elements, I think you are right.

Yesterday night I heard "St. Matthew Passion"(not conducted by Karajan),but I understand that your disk was wrong....

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Ciao

Rosy

[jhgaulard]

In fact, I listened to the B-Minor Mass given at the same Bachfestival in 1950 and it was very dynamic, ample and lush -- a completely different performance, but then the Mass has a completely different tone from the Passion. The only thing is that Schwarzkopf and Schöffler had OPPOSITE conceptions of the tempi of their respective arias with the maestro -- who again wanted to go slower...while Schwarzkopf was trying to race through the Laudamus te...but it is more fun than anything else.

Since you are Italian rosy, have you heard Verdi's Requiem from Salzburg in 1949? Non-Italian singers (Hilde Zadek - Margarete Klose - Boric Christoff - Helge Roswaenge) but an amazing "Italianita" and strong spirituality kept all the way through...the word goes the concert was so successful that Herbie was carried on the shoulders of some audience members after the concert...Preiser has published this performance in quite good sound...

[Rosy]

Hi Jaques-Henri!

Yes, but only on the radio. As I said, the old interpretations of the Maestro, are those who often I prefer for classical imprint that has never abandoned.


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The Maestro Karajan had a particular fondness for G. Verdi, in fact he conducted his works with absolute mastery. Verdi's Score show us a musicality that is may be incorrectly described as "easy!". The "Messa da Requiem denies the error where we can often fall. It's a test for conductors and singers. In my opinion, the masterly interpretation of 1967, Price-Cossotto-Pavarotti-Ghiaurov, Teatro alla Scala, is unsurpassed.

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Rosy

[Rosy]

Alexander, do you believe too the old Karajan's interpretations have a charm, a supplier, an accuracy, without formal weaknesses of the sort that still surprise us in spite of those who consider outdate?

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I'm deeply convinced that the inevitable evolution of the Maestro to also exaggerated romantic style has never lost astonishing accuracy executive.

In short, the Maestro, for a divine gift, started on the high peaks, and it's maintained at high levels, often unattainable

Rosy

[jhgaulard]

I agree with Alexander. Coming back to this early religious music, you're talking 60-70 rehearsals with chorus, endless detail etc etc...Remember also that Karajan conducted the Berliner very little in the early years of his tenure, keeping working instrument by instrument for about 2-3 years before launching this big adventure and his first recordings. Would this be possible today? Conductors would have to be ready to spend decades with the same orchestra...and the only one who did this with care, love and a thankless professionalism is actually James Levine. In the mid-90s, the sound reached by the Metropolitan orchestra in pretty much any piece of the operatic repertoire was both outstanding and always idiomatic. The brass section in Meistersinger, the bass strings in "Un Ballo"", wind instruments in Cosi, that was phenomenal...The quality started to move down a bit once guest conductors took too much importance but hey...a contract that has been lasting since 1971 gives results...who would be ready to the sacrifices this entails today?

[Rosy]

Thank you, Alexander and Jacques-Henri,

I'm very pleased that we start with similar assumptions. I'm writing some personal observations arising from listening to beautiful music pages conducted by H.v. Karajan, in 1950/'55. Fortunately registrations are good. I confess, without shame, that while Karajan conducted the " Incompiuta" by Schubert, tears me down....

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Rosy

[lee]

Good Afternoon Jacques-Henri - my sincere apologies for the delay in coming back to your original question about Karajan's 1950 St Matthew's Passion. I actually have 2 recordings of this performance, the version on Andante like yourself as well as a late 1980's release on Hunt, which is coupled with a performance of Bach's Second Violin Concerto with Christian Ferras from the 1967 Salzburg Easter Festival in 1967. You will doubtlessly be interested to know that the timings of both versions are identical and from what I can ascertain there are no variations in pitch from the two recordings (which one would assume there wouldn't be given that the timings are the same). As to the performance itself, I do not consider myself remotely qualified to comment on the merits of any performance of Bach's Passions, however current critical opinion on this performance appears to veer from the dismissive (classsicstoday.com) to ecstatic (a recent survey in Gramophone magazine of all available performances drew high praise indeed for this one). Is the 1973 studio version your ideal then as you suggest, or is there a performance by another conductor that you prefer ? Incidently, Gundula Janowitz considered the contemporaneous performances given at the 1972 Easter Festival as the high point of her career - I wonder if there are other forum members who have heard (or were even there) this performance could comment on whether it was better live than in the studio ?

With best regards,

Lee

[jhgaulard]

Hello Lee, thanks for your clarification. If that is the case then this 1950 performance can only be considered as the draft for the 1973 version, which I like a lot...Tapes have circulated of the 1977 performances, and I have heard them on the radio once and they are the best thing I have heard from the maestro in this work...More generally, I think Karajan tends to be fantastic in live performances (not as if he was bad in the studio) but basically recording a work BEFORE the concert and turning it into a general rehearsal seems at odds versus the maestro's artistic objective which was to leave a "perfect" recording legacy. Examples abound of cases where I wish the live performance would have survived, and not the studio one...the 77 Passion is one, the 72 (I think) Magic Flute is another, the 74/75 Meistersinger and the 1983 Fliegende (where Ligendza replaces Vezjovic) are also, in my view, good examples. I think a conductor like Evgenyi Mravinsky survives extremely well because all his recordings post 1960 are pretty much live performances...and you can sense it...A contrario, it seems to me that the 850-odd studio recordings of HVK are somewhat slightly counter-productive for his own legacy.. Apparently (and this is heresay only since I have never attended any of his concert), his live performances were exhilariting, energetic and with a lot of risk-taking and contrasts-- which didn't prevent them from being beautiful. Too bad he didn't have more faith in the magic of the instant...

[lee]

Hi Jacques-Henri. I think that you have made an extremely important point here and one that has been largely overlooked in the various assessments of Karajan in his centenary year - that he was in general a different conductor in the concert hall than the recording studio. This point was briefly touched upon by Mahalo earlier in the year, but I find your comments important enough to warrant resurrecting that thread - I hope you don't mind.
With best regards, Lee