Karajan in Concert DG DVD

[Dave]

Me again, with another topic about DVDs

While I am trying to track down a copy of the Brahms DVDs to rent, this newish DG DVD caught my attention:

www.amazon.co.uk/Herbert-Von-Karajan-Concert/dp/B00114LF58/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1218658694&sr=8-4

According to Amazon, this is a 2-DVD set. However, the relatively unhelpful people at the library seem to think that this is a 1-DVD item; they said it might be a double-sided DVD. I haven't seen double-sided DVDs for years, so if anyone has this could you let me know how many discs it is supposed to be. The DG website says it is two as well, but that could vary between countries.

Many thanks.

[lee]

Hi Dave

I hope you are well.

Yes, I have this DVD and can confirm that there are definitely 2 DVDs in the box (I hope that double-sided DVDs don't make a comeback....)

As for the contents, there is a very fine Debussy Prelude and La Mer, as well as a Ravel Daphnis Suite No 2 which would have been fantastic if the Maestro had not insisted on using two tympanies at it's climax (making it thunderous, rather than ecstatic). The Rachmaninov Piano Concerto No 2 has its moments and the sundry overtures are very good, even if together they make an odd collection. They all date from the 1970's and show Karajan and the BPO in their heyday, with the Maestro conducting with his famous "eyes wide shut" style, as opposed to his later, less mobile eyes open self, as showcased in the Telemondial films on Sony.

It also contains a 1970's documentary called "Impressions of Karajan", which veers from revelation to (today's twenty first century eyes) scenes that are quite frankly naively embarrassing, but which overall demands to be seen. I was left saddened by it personally, as it seems to show a conductor and orchestra on extremely good terms with no hint of the troubles to come only a few years later. Perhaps because of this and in spite of its flaws, it is probably my most favourite Karajan documentary and for that alone, I would purchase the set.

However, due to it's unusual mix of contents, I would probably say that this is the best single/first purchase of all the Karajan DVDs currently available on the market. And it's on 2 DVDs !

Hope this helps,

Lee

[Dave]

Lee, thanks for confirming that, and for the other helpful and kindly information. I don't know why people in libraries/rental services (which is somewhere else I tried) seem to be so utterly clueless about this sort of thing. I even had one organisation tell me that I should pay to rent it from them, get the discs, check to see if it's double-sdided, and then return it to them if they missed one out. You'd think they could check it themselves wouldn't you?

[lee]

Hi Dave

Yes, in this day and age you would think this information would be readily available. Are you going to buy the disc now ?!

Lee

[Dave]

I suspect as much, Lee. It's turning into too much of an annoyance to rent the thing which, despite how much I'm sure I'll enjoy the product, I like to do as a matter of course.

[Dave]

Long time... no post. Quite why I haven't posted for almost a year is beyond me. Hello again, all.

I managed to get both the Concert DVDs and the Brahms set on rental - and then quickly bought them. Which is nice.

Quick question about the Brahms though. I know that Karajan's Beethoven cycle - the one on DG DVD - is of performances that are effectively mimed. I believe that was talked about a lot in the Richard Osborne book. However, are the Brahms the same? I ask because they appear to have a live audience, but such is the quality of Karajan live you don't ever hear slip ups - and as such they sound like they could be recorded. There also seems to be what looks like a sync issue with No.4 - in the final minute or so the video and the picture appear to be off. I don't know if this is my copy, deliberate, or a consequence of having a camera that is too far away, but it looks strange. Heck, it might even be the odd nature of the music itself...

[john]

Dave

Interesting topic this.

The DVDs you refer to are not so much mimed as edited, they are infact recorded the same way as a commercial CD, that is to say in a studio environment, therefore the sound is much better and of course there are no mistakes or additional unwanted noise etc.
Most of the early Unitel (DG) DVDs and many of the later Telemondial (Sony) DVDs were recorded in the concert hall with small parts of the audience shown only as 'extras' in certain shots, the remainder of the auditorium was empty, the 'live' recordings show the complete audience from many different angles including behind the orchestra.

Some of the disc's have 'false' applause at the end of the work, however this is always the same for each disc and the camera shot pans way back from the podium so you cannot actually see Karajan or the orchestra that closely, this is a dead giveaway.

Some of the Unitel actual 'live' DVDs include Bruckner 8th, 9th & Te Deum, Beethoven 9th from Berlin 1977, Brahms German Requiem and Beethoven Missa Solemnis from Salzburg, the Sony's include Bruckner 9th, Strauss Alpine Symphony, Zarathustra, Metamorphosen, Death & Transfiguration and Don Juan, the later being from a brilliant concert in 1984 from Osaka Japan.
There are also various new years eve Berlin Concerts plus of course the the famous 1987 Vienna new years day concert.
Fortunately quite a few 'live' opera's were also recorded by Telemodial, in contrast to the earlier filmed Unitel versions of Rosenkavalier, La Boheme, Carmen, Cav & Pag, Otello, Das Rheingold and Madam Butterfly which were all studio films and of course were mimed.

Karajan also edits many of the orchestral shots to show the Horns or other wind instruments in absolute perfect lines with no other members of the orchestra visible in the shot, this is stage managed and simply would not be possible in a live broadcast.
In my opinion these shots are definatley mimed, however the main body of the concert is I feel generally performed 'live' with some editing as I mentioned previously.

Personally, I am not a fan of the 'Studio' DVDs although The Brahms and Tschaikowsky symphonies are very good.
I much prefer the 'live' concerts.

I hope this helps.

John

[Catalin N. R.]

Jun 27, 2009 18:10:35 GMT 1 Dave said:

I know that Karajan's Beethoven cycle - the one on DG DVD - is of performances that are effectively mimed. I believe that was talked about a lot in the Richard Osborne book.

Hello Dave, hi John,

I am sorry, but I have an obscure point. Are the performances of the DGG Beethoven cycle really mimed, or just mixed / edited as John maintained? Is it written somewhere in Osborne's book (A Life in Music) that the DGG Symphonies cycle is effectively mimed, as Dave said?
Sorry for being somewhat inquisitive, but it's very important for me to know the truth.

With kind regards,
Catalin

[Rosy]

Hello All, hello Dave, I'm happy to see you here!

I'm agree, an interesting topic..
The great charm that emanates the Unitel DVDs is just a way, a little intricate, in which they were realized; I have read, in addition to many books, several italian reviews in the newspapers of those years, and no critic says that Karajan had mimed on music previously conducted by himself. Yes, John, in his post, has explained clearly how Unitel- DGG DVDs were realized. However, if Karajan had really mimed, he would have had an incredible sense of timing, and we know that it is deeply true!! Behold, now I have completely confused your ideas, but one thing is certain: Herbert von Karajan used all tecnological means that were available to him, in the name of Music.

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Best Wishes
Rosy

[Catalin N. R.]

Hi Rosy,

It's good to see you here too!

However, even your explanation is a little bit hazy, so I still wait for Dave's answer. Thanks anyway!

With kind regards,
Catalin

[Rosy]

Hi Catalin,

I wanted to say that the books don't say the same things and no book is more truthful than another; but musicologists and critics that I consulted told me that he didn't mime the conducting

**********************

Best Regards
Rosy

[Catalin N. R.]

Thank you very much, Rosy. But I'm mainly interested in Osborne's opinion, so I want to know where did Dave find that Karajan mimed the DGG Beethoven Symphonies. Nothing else...

With kind regards,
Catalin

[john]

I can't recall anything in Osborne's book about the Beethoven being mimed, however this is a large book and I have read only once.

I did however read in Gramophone that a studio recording is still a 'live' recording, mainly because the orchestra actually played the notes and the conductor conducted.
This may well be the case but certain passages can be re-played and edited as well as technically enhanced.

In the concert hall you basically get what actually happened, truly a 'live' experience warts and all.
I remember recording the 1987 Vienna new years day concert from the TV broadcast, Karajan made a mistake by starting to conduct the Blue Danube, the orchestra sat there bemused as the next item in the concert was not the Danube, also the speech that day was full of technical problems and Karajan could not be heard for some time, non of this was included in the Sony DVD release,.
Furthermore after the opening bars of Don Juan at the Osaka 1984 concert Karajan stopped the orchestra and re-started the piece, non of this is shown on the Sony DVD, personally I do not have a problem with these mishaps they are part of history.
For instance when JFK was shot the TV company could not edited out, if you get my drift.

Anyway back to the Beethoven, I do not have this set but from what I have seen Karajan conducted the orchestra 'live' in the studio and edited the end result where he felt necessary, I do not believe he ever mimed conducting.
However as I said in my previous post but didn't make it clear the singers in the opera's did actually mime to a pre-recorded tape.
Furthermore, where we see Karajan conducting in these films (intermezzo's) the shots are in a studio, similarly at the end of Rosenkavalier he bows to a non existent audience so in effect he is miming at this point.

John

[Catalin N. R.]

Jun 28, 2009 22:44:14 GMT 1 john said:

I do not have this set but from what I have seen Karajan conducted the orchestra 'live' in the studio and edited the end result where he felt necessary, I do not believe he ever mimed conducting.

Very interesting your postings on this ticklish subject, John!

Let's see what Dave will say us about Osborne's position.

With kind regards,
Catalin

[lee]

Hi Catalin

I hope that you are well.

I also think I have the answer that you are looking for about the Karajan's films of the Beethoven symphonies. In both the DG as well as the Telemondial/Sony, the bulk of the performances are performed as if "live", however there are some retouchings, in particular, instrumental solos, where the player mimed to the playback. This is particularly noticeable when all of a sudden they appear to be playing in "isolation". Similarly you may often notice that all the brass players are perfectly in line, equally apart as they "play" - they are miming at this point, as are groups of woodwind instruments in similar situations; they would never keep this still in performance !

So in answer to your question, no the bulk of what you see is as "live" as you can get it with occasional sections mimed as the director (usually Karajan) wanted to make a (musical) particular point. Although Richard Osborne's book is very comprehensive, in this instance I would point you in the direction of the DVD film "Maestro for the Screen" which I think would answer you questions and more !

With best regards, Lee