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Post by Catalin N. R. on Jul 1, 2009 20:20:23 GMT 1
Hi Lee,
I hope you are well too. Sorry for not to have replied sooner, but I haven't noticed your answer. As I understood, the music is mixed or edited by Karajan, but only sequential, not entirely mimed. Thanks a lot for all the details you have presented here. Thanks also for the clue that you gave me in the end: actually I do have the DVD, but never saw it. I thought it's not very important, but now I am satisfied that it is. Thank you again.
With kind regards,
Catalin
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 26, 2009 21:08:42 GMT 1
Sorry, I seem to have opened a can of worms and then run off again. The 'miming' thing was definately in Osbourne's book, I'm certainly not making that up. Perhaps what I am getting confused about is the extent to which it actually took place. Maybe it was just the close-ups with sole musicians etc that worked in this fashion. I perhaps should read it again. Oddly, we got onto this because I asked a rather odd question about the Brahms No.4 from the early 70s films. It was actually the apparent sync issue I was concerned about; a technical issue as opposed to a musical one  All the best. |
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lee
Senior Member
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Post by lee on Jul 27, 2009 10:26:10 GMT 1
Hi Dave
No, we all know that you are not making it up ! Osborne does document it in his book and it is discussed in some detail during the DVDs "Maestro for the Screen" and, to a lesser extent, "Beauty as I See It." You can definitely tell too which sections are being mimed as they can sometimes be out of sync, as you yourself have noticed. However, my understanding is that it is only part of the films that are done this way.
Strange to relate though, that I often prefer the films that are more obviously "live" than studio- based, for example the Pines of Rome from Osaka and the Beethoven Eroica from the Berlin Centenary Concert in 1982, where there were no obvious "patching-up" sessions. What do you and the other forum members think ?
Best regards, Lee
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Post by Catalin N. R. on Jul 28, 2009 17:31:36 GMT 1
Hi Lee,
I think that the term "patching-up" is too strong to define the Karajan masterpieces. If there were some mimed sequences, they were intended by the Maestro, and I think there is nothing wrong in that...
As regards the "battle" between 'live' and studio recordings, you know my opinion: I think that, in Karajan's particular case, all recordings should be looked as historical documents, either those performed in studio, or the 'live' ones. So I put the equal sign between them. But I don't want to sway yours or others' opinions. Everyone should feel free to post their own opinion about 'live' vs studio recordings.
With kind regards,
Catalin
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Dave
Junior Member
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Post by Dave on Aug 1, 2009 11:24:02 GMT 1
Lee, that Pines of Rome recording is superb - and I've only seen it on YouTube. I can't imagine how terrific it must be as a proper recording.
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john
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Post by john on Aug 1, 2009 12:48:08 GMT 1
Dave, Lee, Catalin and everyone
Lee is correct regarding the Beethoven 3rd and the 1984 Osaka concerts.
Of course there are many more actual 'live' concerts in the Telemondial and DG catalogues, these were taken from actual TV broadcasts and therefore not subject to any change etc. However as I have said previously the Osaka concert did have a false start to the Don Juan, this is left out of the Telemodial DVD. Furthermore in the 1987 Vienna New Years Day concert Karajan started to conduct the Blue Danube Waltz and the orchestra did not respond, this is because the next item on the agenda was actually another piece. This was quite amusing, however what was more emotional was when Karajan finally did conduct the Blue Danube the audience (as is tradition) broke into applause whereby Karajan then made a speech.
None of the aforementioned is included on the DVD much to my annoyance as I chucked out the Video I made of the concert from the TV broadcast thinking it would be in full on the DVD.
John
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Post by Catalin N. R. on Aug 1, 2009 14:25:52 GMT 1
What a pity, John!!!... I know that you are keen on 'live' recordings. And didn't you send that recording to anyone else, so you can retrieve it now? Really a thousand pities...
With kind regards,
Catalin
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2009 23:46:31 GMT 1
Hi John,
As Linda pointed out, the 1987 speech can be found in the video "Beauty as I See It".
Also, it's still mysterious why Music of the Spheres is missing on the Dec 1985 concert DVD, and why the 2nd minuet of K 334 on 1 May 1987 is missing.
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Rosy
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Post by Rosy on Aug 3, 2009 16:41:52 GMT 1
Hi Lee, I think that the term "patching-up" is too strong to define the Karajan masterpieces. If there were some mimed sequences, they were intended by the Maestro, and I think there is nothing wrong in that... I want to resume the speech about patching up which I consider a very interesting and controversial issue. No, Catalin, the term used by Lee is not too strong; Karajan himself said openly to make grafts, and this was essential to obtain good results. I must point out that many conductors used these methods, but they would have never admitted this! Another thing is to determine if this was lawful or not; the topic is very complex, in fact we can read many books written by distinguished musicologists to understand that there are different guidelines; however, the incessant research of the Maestro to obtain better results, using all technical means that he had available, it's commendable and very good for us!! ********************** Rosy |
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Post by Catalin N. R. on Aug 3, 2009 17:24:44 GMT 1
Yes Rosy, but a graft is not by all means a "patching-up": the term "to patch up" has also a deprecating connotation, e.g.: "it was patched up rather than repaired..." etc. ... however, the incessant research of the Maestro to obtain better results, using all technical means that he had available, it's commendable and very good for us!! This is in fact what I wanted to render evident. With kind regards, Catalin |
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Rosy
Senior Member
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Post by Rosy on Aug 3, 2009 18:34:35 GMT 1
I know that the meaning is different! I wanted to say that Karajan himself deprecated his work. "I do not ever more in this way", or "Ah, if I had the means that I have today". Some critics say that the Maestro was incredibly precise in the pach, the musical line is perfect so often we don't see that there was a manipulation, and as Karajan says : Manipulating means working with your hands" Can this is wrong? I know the answer only when I hear his interpretations. ********************** Rosy |
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Post by Catalin N. R. on Aug 4, 2009 5:01:31 GMT 1
Karajan himself deprecated his work. "I do not ever more in this way", or "Ah, if I had the means that I have today". Dear Rosy, The Maestro sometimes - not always - deprecated his work because he was a perfectionist. I think (and I thought you think the same) that our duty is to glorify him for the legacy he left us, not to pick holes in his coat. OK, some sequences were mimed, I agree, but they were intended by him to be so, and that should be enough... With kind regards, Catalin |
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Rosy
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Post by Rosy on Aug 4, 2009 6:50:59 GMT 1
I absolutely don't want to be polemic, but I wish to express, with my poor words, ahime`!, a musicological point of view! I don't say that the work of the Maestro, in the studio recording, is not correct, I simply say that, sometimes, certain methods of interpretation may create some perplexities, or may not have full acceptance! Personally, I adore his studio recordings and all his methods more or less orthodox; ( for example, moving the musicians to any Variation, on Variationen für Orchester, by Arnold Schönberg, on which I've written an essay, where I declare the genius of Karajan) on the other hands, his live recordings are just as a perfect! They are different ways to express and serve the supreme Art. I don't want to define the best, it isn't my task, but, I repeat, I only wish to point out something, that isn't divergent with your ideas, but it is a pretex, as I usually do, for a reflection! The Maestro was fierce with himself, indeed, in the last years of his life, he had the intention to record again all his movies! ********************** Rosy |
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Post by Catalin N. R. on Aug 4, 2009 7:33:40 GMT 1
Dear Rosy,
Neither me I wanted to be polemic with you or Lee, or Dave. I just don't like when someone contest the work of the Maestro. I am very sensitive to this point. Sorry if I sounded irritated... ;D
With kind regards,
Catalin
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Rosy
Senior Member
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Post by Rosy on Aug 4, 2009 7:44:28 GMT 1
...the Maestro said this or the Maestro has decided so, not automatically became right thing; anyone, including Karajan, has the gift of better choice, saying this, I know not remove anything to the maestro, he is and always will be the reference point of each orchestra conductor. An authoritative italian musical critic said: "Today, more than ever, the younger generations should be measured each time with the greateness of Karajan!"********************** Rosy |
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